Q&A with Gaby Dunn (part one)

Over the last 12 months or so, I’ve had the chance to do various cool things on/with my blog. Things that have made me happy. Things like short story competitions…and guest posts from fucking amazing writers…and audio excerpts from stories of mine that someone has actually chosen to publish.

None of those things were really planned. They sort of happened organically, either because I was struck by a sudden idea, or because someone nudged me to get off my arse and do them.

At the start of 2015, I had an idea for another cool thing. What if I could persuade some of the people whose stuff I really admire – people beyond the circle of friends I’ve made in the blogging/writing community – to come on here and talk about their work? Or about their politics, or their sexuality, or their experiences, or…really just anything? That would be pretty great, right?

Right.

I didn’t do much about that idea till a couple of weeks ago, when I started to put together a list of people I could call, or email, or DM. People who might be kind enough to give up their time and answer my questions, or tell me about their lives.

Top of that list was comedian, writer, blogger, and Buzzfeed Video superstar, Gaby Dunn. As a huge admirer of her blog, her various writing projects, and Just Between Us, her YouTube show with the equally talented Allison Raskin, I knew that there was a shitload of stuff I’d love to ask her.

One slightly gushy series of DMs later – and much to my surprise and delight – that shitload of stuff turned into a list of 20 questions. After we both concluded that writing out answers to all of them would take forever, I found myself calling Los Angeles, and what was meant to be a simple, email-based Q&A suddenly became 75 minutes of full-on awesomeness.

Part two of the interview will be posted over the weekend, once my fingers recover from transcribing the first 40 minutes. For now, check out Gaby’s thoughts on comedy, feminism, sex-positivity in the media, and a host of other topics…

First off, I just want to say that I’ve been a big fan of your writing and video work for a little over a year now, so thank you so much for taking the time to do this. What does a typical working day look like for you at the moment?

Since working at Buzzfeed, it’s been a bit different: I have an office to go to and an actual schedule! It’s a 9-6 job, but still, every day is interesting. Sometimes we’ll spend a few hours pitching video ideas, or we’ll be making videos, or editing them. There’s also a lot of time spent writing, which I’ll do either on my own or with Allison Raskin. Outside of Buzzfeed, Allison and I write in the evenings and at weekends, which is also when we shoot our own show. It’s sort of like having two jobs! Two really cool jobs, but yeah, one can’t really touch the other.

Do you and Allison share an office at Buzzfeed? What’s it like working so closely with your best friend?

Yes, we share an office at work, and we’re together all day, and still, at the weekends she’s like “Hey, what are you up to?” It’s really nice, and important I think, that we make time to have ‘friend dates’, and that we remember we’re more than just business partners.

I’m impressed you manage to sustain that dynamic. A few years ago, I had a relationship with a work colleague, and while there’s definitely an upside to it, in the end it just got too intense. It was a bit of a mindfuck.

Well, Allison and I have said we’ll go to couples therapy at some point! Because this is like a marriage, really: we own a business together, y’know, we’re financially attached, and we’ve said that before we ever try to dissolve that, we’ll go to counselling.

Over the course of your career, you’ve worked for ‘traditional’ media outlets, like the Boston Globe and the New York Times, as well the likes of Buzzfeed and ThoughtCatalog. How do they differ, in terms of the attitudes you’ve encountered towards issues around gender and sexuality?

Well the joke is always that the New York Times is behind on everything. They’re just starting to cover transgender issues now, and they will kind of like ‘discover’ things that bloggers have been writing about for years. So that was definitely a frustrating thing about working for mainstream publications; everything has to be vetted to the extreme, because in their eyes your own experience wasn’t evidence enough that something was real.

And y’know, I think that in the end they’re going to have to catch up. I think it’s silly to wax nostalgic about the ‘good old times’ of journalism. It’s not an excuse to be irresponsible the way some other outlets sometimes are, but they definitely need to be more flexible in their approach.

At Buzzfeed Video, what I’m doing isn’t really journalism; there are unscripted pieces that you could say are trend pieces, or journalistic in their approach, but a lot of what I do is more…personal experience stuff, I guess. In traditional newspapers, they tend to need a clean narrative, which just doesn’t always exist in real life, and here I have the freedom to be more flexible.

It’s a similar story with publishing. A few years ago, I pitched a book that didn’t end up getting bought; I had references in there to both men and women I had dated, and a lot of places were sort of like “It’s too confusing”, and I was like “It’s too confusing?! It’s what happened!” So yeah, it can be frustrating.

Your work – both on Buzzfeed and elsewhere – does a great job of covering big and important issues in engaging, imaginative ways. Are there any pieces from, say, the last year or so that you’re particularly proud of? Are you conscious of using your platform – given the type of audience that tunes into it – to educate people and change minds, or is that sort of secondary to the desire to make them laugh and entertain them?

No, very much so. I think it’s changed a lot, and I’m now in a place where I really want to inform and educate, and comedy just happens to be the way to do that. When I was in college, I just wanted to do comedy, but it’s definitely more than that now. Y’know, a woman told me yesterday that she watches my show with her seven-year-old child, and then they talk about it afterwards if the child has questions. And the show is not PG, or even PG-13 – like, I talk about a lot of stuff, and the woman said she finds it a good tool for having important conversations with her child.

It’s not just children either. There are a lot of people out there who don’t know much about feminism, or who have questions about sexual activity. Bisexuality is another good example of something where people struggle, and a lot of that is because every portrayal of it in mainstream media or movies is very, like, fraught and emotional and sad. It’s like “oh my God, the bisexual character has died”…and then on the other hand it’s interesting for people to see someone like me, where it’s just one part of my identity, or just something I mention in passing. It’s not ruining my life!

You certainly don’t come across as a tragic figure!

No! And that’s kind of very conscious. I want to have all these quote-unquote perceived flaws, but also come across as very confident and chill. I want to be someone viewers can relate to overall, because in doing that I make it easier for them to relate to the sex-positive parts of me that might come across as outside their experience or comfort zone, if they just encountered them in isolation in the ‘real world’.

To me, most media discussion around bisexuality, polyamory, kink, and actually anything ‘non-mainstream’ in a sexual sense still seems pretty primitive – it tends to be either judgmental or thigh-rubbingly prurient with not much in-between. There are people out there like you, like my friend Ella Dawson, who manage to write about things like polyamory, STIs, frat culture, in a really easy, matter-of-fact way, without sensationalising them…but across the media as a whole, those people seem pretty few and far-between. Has your experience been different, and can you point to any shows or publications that you think are beacons of sex-positivity?

It’s more about individual writers than publications, I think. The likes of Buzzfeed can say that they’re a feminist publication, and I don’t…I don’t think they’re wrong on that, but ultimately it requires us as writers to pitch the ideas and the stories to back that up.

And that does come at a cost sometimes. Of all the Buzzfeed ‘face characters’, the people who act in videos as well as write…y’know, of all of them, even if I’m in a video that’s not about feminism or not about sexuality, the Youtube comments, the hateful comments, are much stronger towards me than towards anyone else. The response is louder, MRA-type stuff, and I don’t think that’s a thing that anyone else here has to deal with. Ashly Perez gets a lot of racism, but yeah, I don’t think anyone else has angered the internet of men as much as I have here. Even if I made a video about something innocuous, the comments would be different to if, like, Ella Mielniczenko made that same video. They know me from other videos, and they know that I’m the feminist, and…yeah.

It must be so frustrating to have the content you put out there judged according to what they think of you as a person, rather than what they actually make of your work?

Sure! And the online debate about my sexuality is just endless. I’ll post a picture on Instagram, it doesn’t even matter what it is, it could be of a flower, anything, and immediately 14 people will be like “She’s a lesbian!” “No she’s not!” It’s just silly. Y’know, Google me, one time!

And it’s kind of depressing that people think your sexuality is any of their business in the first place, or that it should affect their perception of your work.

It’s also crazy how little they’re able to critically think. I mean, in some videos I have a female love interest, in some it’s a male love interest, but regardless of my actual sexuality, I’m also an actress!! How can you not…like, even if I was straight and played a lesbian in a video, that would be ok! No-one saw Brokeback Mountain and thought “Ok, well I guess those guys are really gay.” Or maybe they did, and I just don’t talk to those people.

YouTube commenters are just…

Sometimes it’s not even that it’s hateful! Like, if you make a produced YouTube video, which is clearly scripted, the number of comments from people who think that we’ve somehow captured something that really happened… They’re like “Oh my God, did Gaby and Allison really have this fight?”, and I’m like “Yes, and then we allowed Buzzfeed to film it and put it on the internet!”

Changing tack a bit, I’ve got a question from Malin James, who was super-excited when I told her that I was interviewing you. Like me, she saw the recent post on your Tumblr, where someone implied that your friendship with James Deen somehow negated your status as a feminist. Your response to that was brilliant, and Malin wanted to know if you could talk a little more now about how porn and sex work aren’t necessarily enemies of feminism?

Yes! Well, I don’t think that porn and sex work contribute to violence against women, which I know some people will disagree with me about. There’s such a difference between things like performed fantasy, porn, and even like consensual rough sex between two partners…and assault. And the people who make that comparison are the same people who would say “Well, she likes BDSM, so if her boyfriend beat her up, that’s what she wanted.” Stuff like that absolves the perpetrator of the blame and responsibility that they hold.

It’s like with school shootings, when they say “Oh, it’s video games’ fault”. It’s very easy to blame video games; it’s much harder to look at the larger problems in society, to look at the parents, to look at yourself. It’s the same for sex workers and porn. Sex workers are some of the most marginalised people in society, and have a lot of crossover with other marginalised groups. There needs to be that intersectionality in feminism, where women of colour, and trans women, and sex workers, and other groups all blend together – you can’t just have feminism for one quote-unquote right kind of woman. It’s not about fitting one mould, and y’know, I did that for a long time, where I was like “I need to dress this way, and look this way, and read these things, in order to be feminist.” And a lot of it was dressing really dowdy, and hating all women who were sexually active. It’s only in the last year or so that it’s occurred to me that “Oh, you’re allowed to be hot!” You’re allowed to be hot and be a feminist. You’re allowed to be sexually active and be a feminist. You’re allowed to be a nude model and be a feminist. Fitting into a certain mould isn’t going to save you from patriarchy! Saying “I’m not like other girls” really just causes hate between women, and I don’t think that should exist. The revolution comes from women loving each other, even women who are different from you, or who make choices you wouldn’t make.

With James, I think it takes away the agency of the women he performs with to say that they’re all victims. Also, it’s super-condescending for people to assume that I’d be friends with someone who I haven’t had in-depth conversations with about this sort of thing. I’m not so doe-eyed and starry-eyed by the famous porn star that I’d abandon my principles and not check that he’s a good person! Just the idea that I’m such a dum-dum that I wouldn’t have done that, and that I’m like some dumb girl who needs to hear what I’m doing wrong, is so insulting.

It’s such a bitter dividing line between feminists who are supportive of sex workers and porn, and those who unequivocally oppose it. We see it here in the UK as well, with issues like Page 3.

Anyway, let’s talk about feminism itself. At what point in your life did you start consciously identifying as a feminist, and was that inspired by a particular event or experience? How has your understanding of feminism developed over the last few years?

Probably when I was, like, 24? I remember thinking about some of these issues in college, but not consciously using the term feminism. I did comedy and journalism, which are very male-oriented fields…y’know, crime reporting, news journalism. I guess I kind of had this Tina Fey brand of feminism, where I was very dowdy, and I had short hair – not like sexy short hair, more old lady short hair! Y’know, very consciously trying to make myself unattractive, in order to be taken seriously in these niche fields.

I also wanted male approval a lot, especially in comedy. I was like “I have to be funny in a way that boys think is funny”. And then I was 24, I was seeing someone who was terrible, and I would argue with him about stuff all the time, especially feminism He didn’t understand why Beyonce at the Super Bowl was so great, or why Seth MacFarlane at the Oscars was so bad – y’know, all these things that seemed so obvious to me.

So I think really in the last couple of years. I got to a point where I thought “I don’t need to be like this.” It kind of dawned on me from going to so many open mic nights, and seeing so much male-dominated comedy everywhere, that men aren’t funny! They say “Oh, women aren’t funny”, and I’m like “Have you ever been to an open mic night? It’s 26 dudes who can’t get a laugh!” Like, it started occurring to me that nothing I actually found funny was made by dudes, so why was I trying to appeal to them?

Then there’s been a lot of great stuff out there that’s helped me. The likes of Amy Schumer’s show, role models like Mallory Ortberg, Roxane Gay…

It’s interesting, because it sounds like your feminism, and the way it’s evolved, is quite closely tied in with comedy, and with your progress in that field?

Yes, and also, like, the sex-negative stuff. Thinking that I couldn’t be pretty and be taken seriously, because I needed to appeal to some male idea of what a proper girl who deserves respect looks like. And now my big thing is, like, “I’m smarter and funnier than all of you, and I’m wearing stripper heels! Handle that!”

It’s why I sort of enjoy appearing in videos for Buzzfeed that are a little bit more risqué. I just did one where I’m in my underwear, and that’s so confusing for people. I’m so confident, and so outspoken, and happy to say “I’m smarter than you, I’m funnier than you, my idea is better than your idea”, and then for them to have someone who has that aura, who can command that respect, but who is also undressed…

It’s sort of like saying “I don’t give a fuck,” I guess?

Yes, and for me it just feels like the funniest thing to do to people. It just delights me!

I saw an interesting thing in the news here this week, where a well-known comedian objected to the BBC’s announcement that it would no longer feature all-male line-ups on panel shows – his point was that by announcing it, rather than just sort of doing it quietly and without fanfare, the BBC has put female comedians in the position of wondering whether they’re being invited on as the token woman. I thought it raised interesting questions around how you go about being inclusive without, y’know…

…yeah, well that’s the thing about being an ally! It’s not about you, right? They could have just done it and not said anything, but they wanted to look good.

That leads nicely into my next question. We’ve talked about your feminism, but what do you think about men identifying as feminist? I had ‘feminist’ in my Twitter bio for ages, and y’know, I removed it and put it back, removed it and put it back – not because my views on equality and gender relations were constantly changing, but because I encountered such a wide range of opinions from women on what it implies or indicates when men self-describe that way. So yes, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Huh. I think…just behave that way! Like, I have a lot of men who know I am the way I am, and they get hired at Buzzfeed, and they come to me and they’re, like, “Well I’m also down with that. I’m cool. I’m feminist.” And I say “Ok…well, cool, thank you for coming to my desk and telling me, but in the time it took to do that you could have made a video about it?”

Or gone and talked to another guy about feminism, rather than you?

Exactly! You’re not going to get a cookie, or a pat on the back from me. I think sometimes they want me to know so they can later say something fucked-up in front of me, and they have that to fall back on. I think it’s fine to have it in your Twitter bio, but I don’t need to know it! Tell other people, or just behave in that way.

I have a friend who’s so feminist, behaves in such a feminist manner, is a feminist, but when it comes to identifying, he won’t say he’s one. It’s so weird, he’ll do something, and I’ll say “That’s because you’re a feminist”, and he’s like “NO!” He doesn’t want to be part of a group, or to have that label, or some other dominant bullshit! Either way, the point is that it’s how you behave that really counts.