Q&A with Gaby Dunn (part two)

If you haven’t yet read the first half of my interview with the monumentally cool Gaby Dunn, of Buzzfeed and YouTube fame, you can check it out here. In part two, we continue to explore her views on feminism, and talk some more about the role men should (and shouldn’t) play within it. We also discuss dick pics, fan fiction, Ghostbusters, and why there need to be more female comedy super groups…

Gaby was a great person to interview, and incredibly generous with her time and opinions: I hope (and think) that comes through loud and clear in the text below.

Right, I’m off to dip my typing fingers in a bucket of ice water…enjoy!

Can you give some examples of times or situations where you’ve felt that perceptions of – and responses to – your gender or sexuality have held you back professionally?

I don’t think there are specific examples because it’s so pervasive. I hear from women all the time about men who get promotions when the women are just as qualified or who are trusted with special camera equipment but when the women ask to use they’re denied. I’ve had men pitch my ideas for me and they get made, where when I’ve pitched them they’re rejected. It’s not “hard” evidence but it really adds up.

What do you enjoy most and least about doing stand-up? It’s another world that’s pretty male-dominated – is that changing, or do you still get a lot of pushback for being a female comedian?

Enjoy least? Men. As for what I enjoy most…crushing with people who don’t usually get comedy made for them. I did a show for a literally packed venue of Asian people for a specifically Asian show (I was the only white comic booked) and it was amazing. You never even see minorities in the audience at shows sometime but so many came out to this one because they felt safe. It was lovely. They wanted to laugh.

Even a pretty cursory scan of your Twitter feed makes it clear that you have to put up with a lot of harassment and abuse, just by virtue of being a woman with a strong/clear online presence. As a man, what can I do to help make social media and the internet safer and more pleasant for women, beyond just trying not to be a dick online?

I would say, when you @ reply a person who’s bothering me, take my name out of it, and just @ reply to the dude. Don’t keep me in the conversation. And, I mean, honestly? When you speak up, don’t feel like you’re doing it because you expect pats on the back.

Yeah, and that ties in with what you were saying earlier about not identifying actively as feminist, and instead just…

Well, you can, absolutely! Just don’t come to me and expect me to be, like, “Oh my God, THANK you!”

It’s, like, you’re behaving like a decent human being – don’t expect credit for that!

Yeah, it’s like the bare minimum you can do!

Ok, so that’s pretty much the perfect answer – thank you for that! In a similar vein, I love the quote you posted on your blog from the NUS Women’s Officer (“Men who want to be feminists do not need to be given a space in feminism. They need to take the space they have in society & make it feminist”). Y’know, I’m in my early-30, mid-30s, I’ve been around the block, and while there’s still loads I can learn, I’m thinking more of, like, guys just graduating college here when I ask this. What would you say to those guys about how to do that. Where would you start, what angle would you take?

Well…if you’re just hanging with your friends, even if a girl is not around, and they say something terrible – call them out on it! Um, if you’re putting together a panel, or you’re putting together some sort of event, make sure women are represented as part of that. And there are just…I guess there are just so many male-dominated publications out there, and I find it really interesting when they get around that by saying “Oh, we’re a women’s publication now, because look, we have a women’s publication, a women’s version of us”, and I’m like “Yeah, that’s cool, but why don’t you just start publishing those articles on your real site?!” Y’know, it’s cool that they give women their own section, I guess, but the assumption that we’re not general interest is just so insulting.

So it’s that kind of thing. Instead of being, like, “Let’s have a women’s panel,” or “Let’s have a women’s group,”…and that’s great, and you can do that sort of thing, sure, but instead of being shoved onto a women’s page, those things can also just run on general sites. Like, no-one’s going to die.

ESPN, for example…and I don’t know whether they still do this [EDIT: yes, they do], but they had ESPN-W, for women, because obviously women don’t just like mainstream sports, because what a crazy concept!

Mm, I mean I mainly just like butterfly catching…and biscuit making…

Of course! And hey, you can do butterfly catching competitively! Y’know…you get a decent net…it’s the equipment that matters.

Right, and it’s like, the quote says…the quote says it all. For example, if we did this for Buzzfeed Video, and they said “We’re going to do Buzzfeed Video for Women,” my first question would be “Well why don’t we just include more women in videos on the main channel?” It’s that kind of thing.

Yeah, that makes total sense! Ok, let’s move on, because there’s loads more I want to ask you. We’re in, what, March 2015 now, and I guess I first became aware of your work about 14 months ago…and I really don’t know how, or who linked me to this, but yeah, your piece about dick pics…

In Playboy!

Exactly. And that was one of the coolest and most entertaining blog posts I read last year, and introduced me to your writing…and is obviously a subject perhaps slightly depressingly close to my heart! At the time, the whole LadyBoners sub-reddit was obviously where you were at, in terms of checking out penis – has that changed in the last 14 months? Are there new and even more exciting sources of cock online, that you’ve discovered in that time?

I think…it’s been kind of funny because, through being friends with James and his friends, like, porn sort of got ruined! Y’know? And I think the thing I guess I liked about LadyBoners is that it felt very personal, so then it became more about being even more personal. I definitely have found it funny that at least in the last six months or so, I like just taking my own pictures of people. I’m still…I don’t know what the word is…I’m just like “No, porn is too far away! Pictures of real people on a Reddit are too far away!” It has to be the most intimate thing, which is like, I need to have been in the room, taking the pictures. It’s become just such a funny, weird level of…yeah.

And that kind of reflects what you said in the article, which is that, for the most part, you need to have that personal connection with the other person – or with their penis, anyway!

Yeah, but I think it’s become more than that! It’s not even…just, like, if someone were somewhere else, and texted me a picture, I’d be like “That’s nice,” but what I mostly like is me taking the pictures in the room…and then looking at them later! Which is kind of funny.

Yeah, and, y’know, most of the pictures on my blog I take myself, but occasionally there’s someone who’s, like, “Yeah yeah yeah, I really want to take pictures of you,” and that’s really hot for me, both in terms of the actual process of doing it, with the whole thing of being exposed in that way to someone who’s in the room looking at me – but also kind of thinking about, or knowing what they do with those photos afterwards. That second bit is almost more arousing.

It’s funny, but I think a lot of men don’t actually get that. Definitely the dudes I’ve been with…well, some of them are used to it, but a lot of them have had this sort of surprised reaction, where they’ve been, like, “Did you just take a picture?!” and I’m, like, “Yeah!” And they can’t conceive of what that would be for, or why. And then every time, almost without fail, when I take a picture of a dude that I think is great, and I show it back to him, his reaction will be “Ugh, gross!”

I think y’all are just conditioned not to find your bodies attractive.

But I don’t know that that’s a dude-specific thing. I think women are similar in a way, and I’ve certainly taken pictures of female partners before who’ve had the same reaction. Like, “Why are you shooting me from that angle? You make my chin look fat!” Or whatever…

…right! And you don’t even notice, because you’re too busy finding them hot.

I guess the other thing is that maybe we’re just not used to really looking at our own bodies in that way, and it brings out our insecurities. It’s like, when I transcribe this phone call, I’ll try my best to really focus on your voice and ignore mine – partly because this is an interview with you, not with me, but also because I hate the sound of my own voice on audio. Maybe it’s the same for a lot of people with intimate photos of themselves. Their eyes just get drawn to the bits they don’t like.

Maybe it’s just the people I date, but the women I’ve dated have been very comfortable posing, and happy to say “Yeah, I like that picture,” or whatever, whereas the men, any picture I’ve taken they’ve been, like, “No, gross.”

I suppose one other thing is that the photographs other people take of us are kind of a reflection of how they see us. I often prefer the photos I take of myself – or at least the ones I sort of set up, or conceive myself, even if it’s someone else ultimately holding the camera. When it’s all someone else’s work, I often finding myself thinking “Ew, no, look at all that stomach fat, or look how red my face is, or hey, did you have to shoot it in a way that makes my dick look so small!” You have a range of responses to it, because it’s how someone else is seeing you, not how you see yourself – or how you want to see yourself, anyway.

Sure, but what’s funny is that what I tend to like about the people never seems to be what they like about themselves!

Mm, and I think that bit at least is a universal experience – I’m not sure it’s gendered. Moving on to the next question…

As a guy, I’m in the privileged position of being able to write about sex – and my own sex life – without immediately being hit on left, right and centre, in really sleazy ways. You’re a woman, and you’re pretty famous, and loads of people consume the stuff you put out there. Do you ever write stuff and cringe as you hit ‘post’, knowing the sort of shit you’re going to have to deal with as a result? How much do you find yourself self-censoring, or worrying about what you write for that reason, and how do you balance the desire to write honestly and openly about sex, with the need to protect yourself from that creepy reaction?

I mean, I know I’m going to get a creepy reaction! Like, it used to bother me and now, um, I just know it’s coming, and I know that those people are just the most basic people who apparently can’t help themselves. So yes, it’s shitty that they exist, but, like, I don’t want to censor myself just because they’re going to be that way.

For example, I wrote that dick pic article, and what followed was just, like, a month or so of comments from people and emails from people wanting to show me their dicks, and it’s, like, yeah, ok! And then I would get weird dick pic Facebook messages, and delete them. I’d wake up in the morning, look at my work email, go to Facebook, delete some dick pics – it just became part of my daily routine!

It’s so silly though, because there’s such a lack of reading comprehension. That whole article was about how I like that they’re personal, and then I’d get all these guys just going “Ooh, so does that mean you want to see my dick pic?” Yeah, just no comprehension, or sense of what I was really trying to say.

So yeah, I try not to censor myself, and I just do whatever videos I want. The more annoying thing is that, while my parents are generally very supportive, any time I do something like that they want to talk to me about it! And I just feel like saying “Ugh, could we just not today?”

I’m lucky in that department. My parents are great, and they’re really understanding, and I know they’d be cool with most things, but yeah, they don’t know about my blog, or the things I write, or the photos I post, or whatever.

Yeah, you’re anonymous! That’s a whole other thing. It didn’t even occur to me! So many of my friends have stage names, or writer names, and I’m, like, so arrogant, so narcissistic, that it didn’t occur to me to have a fake name till it was too late!

I feel like I’d be much more restricted in what I write if I did it under my real name.

Well it’s interesting that you write about your sex life, because presumably people could trace who the characters are?

Mm, I generally blend people. That’s how I get around it. Like, I’ll mix two or three different experiences together, and change enough details that I’m left with something close enough to what actually happened to be interesting, but yeah…

Sure, and I get that, because I’d definitely never want to out someone, or that kind of thing. But definitely, there have been people who have behaved poorly towards me, who I, like…I’m sure fans of mine could trace who I’m talking about if they really wanted to.

My view has always been that if I’m going to write about someone in a way where they’re even semi-identifiable, I’ll make sure I’m writing about a positive experience, or about good sex, or whatever.

Ok, next question. Are there sex bloggers who you do read regularly? If so, is there anyone you would particularly recommend for good, smart writing about sex and sexuality?

Hm, good question. I like Rachel White, she’s a friend of mine, and she writes for a bunch of places. I like Sex Nerd Sandra – she’s a podcaster primarily, but she talks about a bunch of interesting stuff. I’ve got a bunch of books that were edited by Rachel Kramer Bussel, and yeah, she’s really great. There used to be that guy at Nerve I really liked, Grant Stoddard – a British guy, I think. I love Lane Moore at Cosmo, she’s really good. Who else? Loads of people! Sara Benincasa and Julieanne Smolinski both write really good sex stuff…I don’t know, who else should I be reading?

Well you should definitely check out Girl on the Net, if you’ve never read her stuff. She’s kind of the biggest deal over here in terms of sex blogging, and she writes really well, and yeah, just the pieces she puts out there are really interesting, and funny, and sex-positive. She wrote a book about her sex life, which is great too. I’ll send you some links to other stuff you might like!

Please do! That would be great!

Ok, cool! What next? Ok, I was a pretty innocent teenager, very inexperienced, and Literotica was something that ended up being really formative for me, in terms of educating myself about kink/sexuality and also just discovering the pleasure of really good smut. Did you have a similar journey, or…?

Yeah, very similar! I grew up pretty religious, but I was, like, a weird kid, and I was always sort of aware of my body, from an early age… Like, my Mom would come home and I’d be there with the housekeeper’s kid, and we’d both be like “We both have buttholes!”

Then later on, not so much Literotica, but fan fiction type stuff was super-formative. I was online a lot… And then Sex Ed at my school was terrible, and my parents weren’t really concerned with talking to me about any of that stuff, so that was, like, the main education. I mean, that was how I even knew gay people existed – from fan fiction!

So…Harry Potter fan fiction, by any chance?

Ohhh yeah!

Ok, this one is pretty much the most irrelevant question I’ve got for you, but it’s also one I’m super-curious about. I was listening to some Garfunkel and Oates earlier today, and it occurred to me that the two of them plus you and Allison would make a pretty awesome comedy super group. Do you guys know each other? Any interest in working together?

We don’t know them! But I like them a lot. We have friends in common, but I’ve never met them. Not yet, anyway! Their show got cancelled, which sucks, but yeah… I wonder why there aren’t more all-female comedy super groups? There are so many all-male groups…

What do you think of the whole female Ghostbusters movie?

Oh yeah, I like that, but then it got all messed up, because aren’t they doing a male remake too? Because everyone got all butthurt?

And the other thing would’ve been cool – and kinda going back to what we talked about earlier – is if they hadn’t said “We’re making an all-female Ghostbusters,” they’d just said “We’re remaking Ghostbusters, here’s the cast!” Announcing it first is, like, expecting us to pat you on the back. Just get the cast, and everyone would go “What a great cast!” But also, I don’t want to pat on you on the back for something that…y’know, there are so many movies with only dudes in them.

If you were going to be one of the Ghostbusters, which of the four would you be?

Hmmmm…Ernie Hudson!

Good choice! Though I always liked Egon, for the same reason I would always have been Doc out of the Seven Dwarves. I always wanted to be the nerdy one, especially when the nerdy one got to do really cool stuff.

Right, time to start wrapping this up! This is a shit question, I know, but where do you see yourself in five years from now? Working in ‘new’ media, is it even possible to look that far ahead with any clarity?

I want to be show running a show or making movies where I can do what I want and I am beholden to no male investors, producers, or anyone with creative input who can stifle pure female creation.

This one might be a bit unfair, but if you had to pick, I dunno, a top five from your 100 Interviews project, in terms of enjoyment, which ones would you go for? Who was the biggest asshole?

James Deen was a favorite. It’s hard to pick because I don’t want people to be upset. The woman with the chicken farm was cool. I honestly haven’t read them back in years because it’s embarrassing to see myself be so publicly 22.

Any plans to travel? As an American, there’s, like, a 14% chance that you currently own a passport, right? Where’s top of your wishlist?

I have a passport!!! I got it to go to Mexico with Allison’s family. I’d love to go to China or Japan. I’ve never been to Asia.

And finally, just because this has always been an obsession of mine, what would be your eight Desert Island Discs? And your book?

To be honest, I am terrible at music. What I like changes all the time and I have no concept of what’s good or hip. My book would be Kafka On The Shore by Haruki Murakami. Hmmmm. And music, I’d make a list for you and then immediately hate it. You still want me to?

Absolutely! If you hate it so much tomorrow that you can’t bear the idea of me putting it online, I’ll print out a copy, film myself burning it, and send you the video…

Ok, here are my eight:

1. 19th Nervous Breakdown – The Rolling Stones
2. Don’t Bring Me Down – ELO
3. Comfortably Numb – Pink Floyd
4. Fast Car – Tracy Chapman
5. What Is It About Men – Amy Winehouse
6. Here You Come Again – Dolly Parton
7. Everywhere – Fleetwood Mac
8. Against All Odds – Phil Collins

This is just to keep everything relatively in the same genre, by the way. I didn’t want to add Nicki Minaj’s Did It On ‘Em and screw up the vibe.

Somehow I feel like you’d regret taking Phil Collins instead. Still, that’s an excellent note on which to end! Thank you so much!